Wet and covered only by a teeny tiny towel, I dash upstairs hoping to make it to Shirley’s room before being spotted. As luck would have it I’m caught mid stairwell.

We’re both startled by one another. He takes in my seemingly naked form and starts talking - ‘Sorry’, I interrupt, ‘I don’t speak Dutch’.

‘I see you met Will?’ Smirks Shirley, the Dutch friend I’m staying with. She’s been listening to my stairwell conversation.

‘Yes. He certainly has a charm, doesn’t he?’

‘He sure does.’ She winks. ‘He’s a dating coach.’

I’m gob-smacked. ‘A what!?’

Shirley laughs. ‘He’s a pick-up artist (PUA)...He coaches guys in picking up women.’

‘I need to interview that man.’

And now here I am, at a restaurant in Amersfoort, -20 minutes early for our interview. It feels like a date: I’m oddly nervous. I mean, a sex-positive blogger and a PUA; sounds like the start of a porno to me…

So, tell me your experience of our meeting on the stairs the other morning

Well, I was on my way to the gym and then I saw this tiny girl with a nose piercing and wet hairs (loving the Dutch English), completely naked… and then I saw you having a towel on and I thought, who is this? This isn’t one of my roommates, who is she?...interesting. And so it was you. And I really wanted to ask your number, but it wasn't necessary, you were first.

Well, actually, you messaged me first!

So a ‘Pick-Up Artist’ is what I’ve been referring to you as. Is that the title you give to yourself?

l call it ‘Pick Up’. In Dutch, it’s more ‘Seduction’; seducing women, picking up women, being better with women. That’s the main purpose. It’s about meeting women and being better with them, not being insecure. The purpose is being your best self and not just a regular normal guy, being different than other guys.

What do you define as ‘different’?

For instance, every guy says ‘Wow, I love your clothing style’ or ‘You have beautiful eyes’. 99/100 guys will give you a physical compliment when they see you in the Burning Man or wherever. I try to do (things) a little bit different, like I sent you a text message that I loved your energy, instead of your nose piercing or your lips, and that maybe sticks more.

Ah, but you clearly did notice my nose piercing, so when you text someone -‘I like your energy’, is it because you genuinely mean it, or you think it will sound better?

Yes, your nose piercing was the first thing I noticed, and yes, normally I would just think about the message and what sounds good. But now it was just really honest. I saw you walking up the stairs with this cute towel that’s a little bit too small, and I saw the friendly smile, and I thought, ‘Wow, this girl is friendly.’ It wasn’t like I was trying to seduce you or something, it was just honest. Sometimes I’m honest; I’m an honest guy. I saw the nose piercing and the cute energy. But, normally, I play a game.

Hmm, this feels like an exception-to-the-rule-moment; am I being seduced?

Okay, so tell me about The Game?

There’s this book, The Game, written by this bald, ugly guy - Neil Strauss. He’s a

40-year-old virgin; he just kissed this girl when he was 20 and that’s it. And then he found this secret group on the internet and within two years of spending time with them he became the best Pick-Up Artist in the world.

By transforming his appearance, he looked the best as he could, and by being this really quick talking, crazy manipulative guy, doing all these tricks and these games and just being GREAT, he could seduce any girl that he wanted.

Ten years ago, when I was 20, I wasn't interested in girls. I just played badminton and did nothing with my life. Then I read this book and I thought, ‘I’m going to try some of this stuff.’ I met my ex-girlfriend a couple of months after trying some of these tricks.

Did she know that you were using these ‘tricks’ on her?

No. Later I told her about it. I kept reading more theory about it, but I couldn’t practice it anymore because I’m a faithful guy. But then two years ago our relationship ended so I started getting back into it, especially the online stuff - that’s my specialty, I think.

Which (dating) apps would those be?

In Holland they have Tinder of course, and Happn, but especially Tinder. I’ve developed this system called How to Seduce a Girl as Quickly as Possible. From getting her number to taking her home.

Can you please tell me about that system?

There are three phases:

Phase 1 - Seducing the Number:

So, let's say we have a match. Charlotte and Will like each other’s pictures. From the match to the conversation I need to get your number as quickly as possible by being different than all the other guys, being real dominant.

Phase 2 - Seduce the Date as Fast as Possible:

When you have the number, spend maximum of one hour talking. Get to know each other a bit better. But be a bit mysterious, keep her interested, and then set a date.

Phase 3 - The Date:

Play a little game that I invented - Om Je Te Loren Kennen - Getting to Know Each Other, in Dutch. You give a question with two false answers and one right. You have to pick the right one from each other trying to read each other’s minds and tease each other with the false answers.

Phase 4 - Back to Mine:

After a few drinks I invite her back to my place.

What is the success rate of this system?

Most of the times when I meet the girl here, I take her home.

So are you expecting me to be a success story as well?

Well, you haven’t earned enough points yet. (What now !?!) That’s one of my main trademarks. I give these girls points; they have to earn the date and they have to earn to come back to my place. The reverse of how it usually works.

And do they know that they’re earning these points?

Yes, in the Whatsapp conversation I give them points for being funny and stuff. Some girls say it’s like being in a television show. And the prize is to see me.

Wow, wow, wowser.

Have you ever had girls not get on board with the points, who are just like ‘Fuckkk this’?

Oh, of course. All the time. On Tinder, girls have a lot of matches. Are you on Tinder?

No, but I have been.

You would have 300 matches a day if you swiped enough. I need to be different than the other 299 guys, so I introduce the point system. If they don’t like it, it’s easy. I just end the conversation and never talk to them again.

So you wouldn’t be interested in someone who wasn’t interested in the points?

Um, maybe. But I wouldn’t spend my more time on her. What happens is, guys I coach spend days, even weeks talking with one girl. Tinder first for a few days, then Whatsapp maybe a few weeks, and then she doesn’t want to meet, or when they do meet there’s no spark; it was all a waste of time.

Besides, maybe 50% of the girls online are just there to have fun. To swipe pictures and have a laugh with their girlfriends. A lot of girls give their number and then the conversation dies; because she doesn’t like the conversation or she has 10 other guys talking to her, it’s the wrong timing, the wrong time of day and she’s busy.

I think I’m ready to talk about the guys you work with.

Say you meet a guy who says he’s been talking to a girl for weeks, how do you advise them?

I tell them to cut it off and go to the next one. If she liked him he would have seen her by now.

In Holland we call it ‘Shoot with hill’ - you shoot 1000 bullets and maybe you hit two targets. I think that’s really sick.

‘Something Else?’ asks the waitress who has just come over.

‘You have to drink a little wine,’ Willrespinds, classically dominating. ‘I’ll take a wine, too.’

I feel confused. I wasn’t going to drink tonight.

‘I don’t agree,’ interjects the waitress. ‘You don’t have to drink any wine if you don’t want to’.

Feeling an immense sense of sisterhood with this bold waitress, and quite certain that she has seen Will in PUA action before, I order myself another tea. That damn dominance really did almost work!

So how are these guys finding you?

Through other guys that recommend me. There are a few other men in the Netherlands who are completely fucked; they treat women unfairly. They’re big fuckers; they say to these guys ‘I can teach you how to fuck a lot of girls’.

So what makes you different? Because to me your system seems a lot like teaching guys how to get laid.

That’s an option. But if you want to meet a girl, you want to get to know a girl better than just taking her home and having sex, I have different advice. It depends on what the guy wants.

Your point of difference is that you’re catering to what they are after?

Yes. I had this guy who wanted a girlfriend, I advised him to go slow and after a few dates with this girl, only kissing; she ended up being his girlfriend. If they had sex on the first date I think it would be spoiled already. I think it’s the same for women. Just spare yourself for the real thing and there will be more connection.

But what is my difference? I think it’s being honest, being real. There are a lot of these (PUAs) guys posting photos with beautiful women on their Facebooks and Instagrams; those are just models they hired from an agency. It’s fake.

The difference is I don’t ask a lot of money.

You get paid?

Sometimes. If the guy’s rich, then yes, if the guy is a poor student I tell him to come to Amersfoort, buy my lunch, and I’ll spend three hours with him working on his appearance, his confidence. I might not have all the answers but I like to help people.

So you’re actually coaching these guys on a lot more than the date?

Yes. I go shopping with them, because they wear these awful clothes from 20 years ago, or they don’t spend time on their appearance. You don't have to look good, but you have to look your best. I take them to the… what do you call it… solobank?

Shopping centre?

No, the sun place for tans..

OHHH the solarium! Those are illegal in Australia.

Why?

Because people have gotten cancer from having them.

Oh, wow, that’s crazy. But you have a lot of sun, so it’s not necessary. Here, you look better when you're a little bit tanned. Then we go to the hairdresser, and the barber for their beard. Then I take new pictures for their tinder profiles.

O yeah, there can be some bad profile pics out there.

Exactly. It's just making them a little ahead of all the other 10,000 guys out there.

The pictures, do you go for the classics - one where they’re looking sporty, one where they’re holding an animal?

No, no, not with an animal, that’s clique.

I’ll tell you a secret. You can tell your clients that if they’ve been to Asia / Africa and they have a picture of themselves with a drugged-up tiger, they’ll be getting an absolute no from me, and anyone who gives a shit about animals.

So you’re a vegan?

No, a vegetarian.

Ah, not hardcore.

Nope, still too addicted to cheese.

What’s your talent?

Yoga.

When you started yoga you were this beginner, and now maybe you’re an expert. But it took you a lot of time, money, and training hours with the Yogi master. I think being better with women is the same. If I want to be the best at badminton, I have to practice a lot of hours. If you want to be better with yoga you have to practice. But if you want to be better with women a lot of people say, ‘why?’ ‘Why should you be better with women? It should just be a coincidence if you meet a girl.’

I think it’s good to be better, to practice for these situations. Like right now, 10 years ago it would be impossible for me to talk to you in this situation. I wouldn’t know what to say to you. It doesn’t help them (insecure men) only with girls; it helps them in real life. With other guys, at work, in a job interview.

I really love the aspect of helping men with their confidence, helping them feel happy about who they are by working on their appearance etc. I do believe that your appearance emanates a message to the world.

However, morally, I wonder: what do you think about if you notice a client sleeping around excessively? Does that bother you?

Yes, it does. I don’t meet these guys. I once met this guy in Amsterdam, at a forum called ‘Real Social Dynamics’ (RSD). It’s the biggest company in this industry. They make a lot of money. Guys go to their talks for a few hours they have to pay $3000. I met this guy on this RSD group, he wrote a post saying, ‘Who can help me score dates in return for money?’

I replied and said, maybe I can help you. He said he works 72 hours per week, has a lot of money and not a lot of time to talk with girls online. He didn’t want to waste time with talking, he just wanted to meet the girls, and then have sex with them, obviously.

He wanted to give me his account, I should seduce the women, set the dates and he would give me €150 for every date set. He wanted three dates per week.

I tried to convince him that it just takes 1.5 hours on Tinder and on Whatsapp to make a date with someone. I told him I’d meet for free and if he liked the system he could decide to pay me. He said - “If I don't want to do it, other guys will do it for me.”

I didn’t do it, that’s not my philosophy. I want to help guys who are insecure, who are vulnerable, who are sweet. We’re talking about the Beta guys; the sweet guy who you would friend zone immediately, but who would actually be the best father for your children.

Unfortunately women are not naturally attracted to these types of guys. So they finish last all the time. And the stupid guys, the guys with the big mouths, they get the girl.

I do it for the Beta guys, who are actually really worth it to have a good girl beside them, to have a nice girlfriend, to have sex, and to feel good about themselves. That’s my philosophy. I’ve rejected a lot of guys that just want to fuck.

What do you think about P.U.A’s like Julian Blanch who was banned from entering Australia and Canada because of his tactics of dominance, of not taking “no” for an answer?

He’s from RSD, and yes he uses manipulation, and it works, really well.

Can you give me an example of manipulation?

A simple type of dominance is that I told you to be here at 8pm; I didn’t ask you.

Yes, I noticed that trick.

That’s okay, you're still here.

[Fuck, shoulda made it 8.05]

That’s just a simple example; it’s not a harmful thing. His could be a lot more harmful.

It comes from this desperate attempt of being noticed by women. You see guys hear a lot of No; ‘No, I don’t like you’; ‘No, I’m busy’; ‘No, I’m with my friends’. They need to find a way around all these no’s, and so some guys come up with this crazy, manipulative stuff.

I think my theory is more human. Of course, I like to do some games and tricks, but it’s not bad. I hope. I haven’t had big complaints.

Yes, well I can’t say women don’t have plenty of their own games and tricks.

What do you teach men about body language?

There is this rule that if a girl gives you three indicators of interest you can kiss her.

Ha! Can I guess them?

Of course, tell me five.

Touching their hair?

Yes.

Touching their lips?

Like you are now, yep.

(Insert me awkwardly laughing)

They laugh, and smile, eye contact, they touch you. They’re all small indicators, but they’re not even true. The rule exists so that the guy will have the confidence to go for the kiss.

If she doesn’t kiss back then you go home. No more wasting time. If you like someone, there is a connection, then there has to be a kiss. If you were out with a guy and he doesn’t kiss you by the end of the night, you will assume he’s not interested in you.

If there is a kiss then there can be sex, because there is attraction. Building attraction by being smart, funny, witty or what do you call that word?

Banter!

Yes banter, and a bit cocky.

You’re describing my ex.

Why is he your ex?

Because he was too arrogant.

Hmm. I think the Beta guys I met can learn to be a bit more arrogant. But the arrogant guys, I don’t think they can learn to be sweet. So, in the end, I think the smart, friendly, friend-zone guy is better off in the world.

I believe that these ‘Beta guys’, their ability to be sensitive and sweet, that isn’t something they should hide away. They should be proud to be in tune with their emotions.

That’s true, and maybe you know that because you’ve had a lot of experience with the Alpha males, the arrogant guys, and you know now that you want more. But, naturally, women don't want Beta guys; they’re not attracted them, they don’t want to have sex with them.

Way back when we were hunters and gatherers, women wanted to have sex with Alpha males because then they’d produce Alpha-children who were more likely to survive. It’s a survival mechanism. These days, you can have Beta-children and they can survive. But do they have lots of sex? No, a lot of them don’t. But they want to have children, too, which is most human beings’ main drive.

You believe Beta guys need to learn the Alpha ways to get more women?

I’ve done this now for two years and I was seeing a girl for maybe 8 of those months. I was really dominant with her, saw her only once a week (at this restaurant), had crazy good sex. She fell in love. But I wasn’t really there. And then I met this Romanian girl in Asia. I didn't do any ‘pick-up‘, I was just my real self: being honest, not playing any games. We connected so crazily that I fell in love with her. And that was more beautiful than the stupid game thing.

But in the beginning it can really help insecure guys to get to know women. It’s a mask.

So this mask grows the confidence from within, and then they put it back on the shelf and they don't need it?

Yes, I hope so.

Do you tell them this plan?

I let them find their way.

Is your mask on the shelf or are you wearing it?

After my 7-year relationship, I felt like a 16-year-old, I wanted to go crazy. I have times of wanting to go crazy. But then, in other times, I think ‘I don't want to do this, I just want to find a special girl’. So I go into retreat. It’s just finding my own balance. Sometimes it feels really shallow. But maybe you meet this one girl who is really special.

The Romanian? [Is she a special girl?]

Yes but she’s in Romania.

Romania is not very far. Europe is small; I the Australian am here to remind you of that!

Well, that’s the tale of the sex-positive blogger and the PUA. I am dying to hear have you heard of PUAs? Have you ever used these tricks? Do you think these tricks have been used on you? Share your stories in the comment section!

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Please note: This interview focused on heterosexual dating. If you, or know anyone you know works in more diverse or non-binary dating realms, please contact me :D